I have stated before and I will say it again. EVERY single councillor and Senior Official (of RMBC and associated private / charitable agencies) from the period of 1997 – 2014 (perhaps before) should prove what they officially did to question what was going on. And if they stopped complaining /bringing up the issue – why? No soundbites – official proof needed.
They should all provide written evidence (and be questioned publicly) – whether Labour, Conservative, Liberal, BNP, UKIP or Independent or any party that had a representatives during this period. .The same applies to the seminar or any similar events – meetings. We all now know (partially) what Mr Akhtar, Stone, Wright and the rest did and didn’t do. It’s time the focus and investigation went further.
Now to Mr Thirwell’s reply to Andrew. Mr Thirwell Andrew is correct. You should state publicly (not just on here) what you knew and what you officially did (or didn’t do). You say you have campaigned on many issues – that is correct – but the question is what went on at that seminar and more concerning CSE. What did you do to raise the issue at official levels and beyond and why didn’t you report this back to the public? (This question isn’t for you only its for all) Real evidence please.
I have a further question to ask most seem to be ignoring for political expediency too. Mr Vines (who was an Independent Councillor during this period) worked with Marlene Guest on Council Watch. Marlene Guest (who’s politics I abhore) stated /states that Council Watch knew of this scandal and what was going on. She says she knew all the facts as dd Council Watch. I would like both of them (and other members of Council Watch) to prove to us all what they officially did or didn’t do.to bring this matter to the OFFICIAL authorities. And if they did so what they did to take it officially further. (Or not) I would also like to know what they didn’t do and if so why? As ever soundbites not permitted – evidence please.
John Turner should give a full account too. Channel 4 news interviewed him live on Monday night outside the Town Hall. .He looked apprehensive and reticent to criticize. I would like to know why? And again I would like him to prove – with evidence – what he did or didn’t do. Again no soundbites.
This process of ‘digging even deeper’ should also apply to Mr Kimber, Mr Howe, Ms Thacker / Ms Bailey (And the Young People’s Services / IYPP Teams / Social Services,) , Ms Sharp, The South Yorkshire Police, the so called Community Leaders, Senior Managers / Directors at RMBC and the associated private / charitable care agencies / contractors and the Human Resources (damage limitation) teams of all involved. (Indeed RMBC and all agency HR’s should be made to hand over all details of complaints they had so the authorities can see how they handled them – I know the did have complaints for certain)
A full independent inquiry should also be made in to the bullying and harassment techniques of all concerned too – Many staff suffered hell and intimidation for bringing CSE out as an issue the Inquiry missed this.
Now I, as always am starting from a stance regarding the named (above) and all of innocent until proven guilty – or innocent for that matter. (Posses’ are not for me) But not enough questions have been answered, the inquiry – public focus has been too shallow – and limited.and some previously not named seem to have escaped the process of justifying what they knew,did or didn’t do as well. .
The citizens of Rotherham are rightly outraged by what went on and what was covered up. But I feel the digging has to go deeper. More names will come out – and then – real action is needed.
As always – to all – keep up the fight.
SKT
Rotherham Politics 
One very small step to try to redress the palpable sense of outrage in the town would be for Rotherham to emulate Sheffield City Council and at next Wednesday’s council meeting to pass a vote of no confidence in Shaun Wright as should Barnsley and Doncaster councils. When all four councils in South Yorkshire have done this he should then accept that his position as SY PCC cannot be maintained and resign!
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Malcontent, surely you are joking. How can RMBC turn round and criticise SW in their circumstances? It would be political suicide, surely?
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revsimcop: If the other three councils in SY pass such a motion of no confidence and Rotherham council don’t what will that say about them? It will appear to the public that he has their full backing. As for political suicide, keeping their heads down and hoping to ride this out, as it appears some of them are trying to do, is suicidal. But as one amongst thousands of people in this town who would like to see the back of them an act of collective suicide would be most welcome!
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Agree – FOIs rasied and submitted?
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My respose to your very exact -if not exacting -demands -areat ine level -almost Sherlock Homlme(sian), in their -reductionist analysis-and admirable -if it could result in getting to the bottom of what you seek-which i believe to be -Truth and Guilty being identified.
But I have afew queries to raise with you-which is not meant to detract from your -salami cuts -into both individual responsibility of those who held power-or even all those with a role either as councillors/officers (on training or not) and all the relevant incidents that relate to the -now-so called ‘cover up’ on this most serious of issues tha blights not only our town but as the charity set up to focus on it nationally (PACE) identifies as even worse than what the actual figures that have been produced by this specific time scale investigation and the wider society -that byou accalim -have the notion of citizenship-inferring that we live in a democracy- to believe in such a conceptualisation of being a participant or non participant in its rigmaroles of annual or 4 or 5 year -selectioneering -of which ideologues are to9 be given power.
My concerns are fourfold- with your demands-also are not to give any thin strand of string or rope to cling to as a form of defence for any neglect or self importance that allowed them to end up with such disgrace that has beffallen on them and their town folk -but to clarify what our society and most societies are run on -the notion of leaders and followers:
Firstly -all human organisations are formed into structures of the in a usual hierachial structure at that.whether it is family- usually majority being ,male dominant strctures where father was een as haed to school/education establishments- with their academic or mangerial-headsof departments or supervisors -to their student clientale and workplaces with workers at the bottom and layers of supervisors -mangers and bosses or owners dictating the rules of conduct. Then you ahve wider society structures from Town Councils-titled local politics and national politics -titled -Representative Democratic parliamentary system of politics-covering what use to be an unelected chamber of aristocrats and the chosen selecte ones-and the elected chamber-titled arogantly as The mother of all modern Parliamentary political institutions that pass the laws (of course specific lwas that please are unseen masters -the capitalist bourgiosie-who dictate the overall goals and pursuits of our’s and most socities-and many academics acclaim -that we are the original model with the title of -‘Mother of all Parliaments’. . And of course we have the eternal elites of this hierachy-in the reified (by many-maybe) -the royal family inherited role-overseeing the whole of our- subserviant system of statuses from the high to the low.
2) I just want to forewarn you that in my contribution -I am not setting out to demean or not take seriously both your demands-or the very serious isuie of trying to get to the bottom of the very shameful isue that besets us all-not just those close to the issue in an official status. And that is actual my second concern -Besides the players’ close to this horrific information and knowledge about the size and scale of the abuse-and its specfic identification of it being mainly Pakistani heritage people-surely we all have to examne what each and every person in this town and other towns-and througout the whole of society knew-and why have we not all come under your salami knifeto get to the truth?
3) We surely must also deal with the type of people who put themselves forward to be elected for a local councillor or national figures of representing a particular party and ideology/cause. Surely we must question how we have moved from only the rich and many corrupt types accessing power in the many Rotten Boroughs of the 19th century (and if you believe that this kind does not exist-then this will be a very short read-as you could stop reading now!).and what sort of mindset of the local and national charater accesses political status now.. Many would say that what Rotherham councillor/national polticians’ types, is amere mirror of the whole country or the world who seek and access power. Most do not have to pass any exam of intelligence or command of knowledge about the role you have either been put forward for or that you have sought or accepted to stand for as a role/status for either good moral reasons or what has become more obvious -for either selfserving or egotistical reasons -if not darn right cunning and conniving reasons to access the corridors of power locally or nationally-which seems to match more of the Tory and business lot-and certain cultural types-as befitting their own national cultures -that politics is about -accessing power to enhance their abilty towards greater wealth-like knowing which land-housing etc is up for real estate sales from the local borough or which businesses are up for planning initiatives etc.
4) Then we have to grasp the nettle of multi culturalisms and the supporters of it and the creation of PC ideas and ideologies-in dealing with both racism-sexism and any other ism that is flavour of the period we exist in. By the way iI do not mean to undermine Pc in its original goals but hen an idea is to pursue consideration of how we treat others both in action and words and is ow being identified as people not being allowed to use common sense-not Common Purpose-(more of the latter later) surely we have to question why certain elected and official post holders who were it is claimed stopped from identifying a particular community that was heavily involved in the distorted and horrific sexual abuse of minors or even children-and are rightly called paedophiles-has maent that PC is being distorted itself-and that certainly suits the rising stars in world politics -namely the Far Right.
Not that i am not saying that the PC brigade are not up for massive criticism when iut has took its original goal and turned it into a dogma For what strated out as a good and moral campaign of initial PC ideas-which was to ensure taht we all take some sort of responsibilty for our actions and words when interacting with all types of fellow people -as the great battle to stop the horribe undermining of women through both sexist jokes -porno calendar pictures in most male dominant work places and still promoted in the gutter press of Murdoch- who introduced it- into our daily rags. Of course the whole notion of all of us being challenged by the new academic creed to watch what we are saying and the sort of language we use -in order not to offend has gone off the proverbial nonesense cliff with its attempt to replace certain words like dwarf and midget -to now virtically challenged etc-is the height of nonsense. All taht was neded were the terms small -average and tall-but oh no the self deprecated academics thinking they were being -on the side of high morals end up being like those that wrote the bible but never met Jesus or really understood what he is actually supposeed to have said. It was not until the new large vases found in the 1960’s when Mary Magdaleen and Jesus supposed brother bibles were found that you get some sense of practicality of Jesus per se.
I would like to address the above in the context of trying to say to SKK that if you go down the road of wanting heads with your salami knife -from those at close quarters to both historic -horrific child sexual abuse -events you will have to take us all to task-and i mean many in the population of Rotherham and across the whle oif society and the wider world who were aware of the same issues in their location by hearsay-or general gossip -even if some of it was in racist terms. Also you would have to seek to bring out the real issue that underpins the whole situtaion across the world in various degrees with some cultures being more male domiant than others in both their religious ideology of thepolace of women in their cultures and religion-including Christianity’s misogny. the whole world -as each of us as Jesus is acclaimed to have said -‘Let he who is not without sin -throw the first stone’. Here I am not suggestiung that most people are not paedophiles nor that the sin of sexual misnorms -even as George Galloway has been villified for when he responded to the allegations in trying to defend Julian La Sange-the implied great revealer of attrocities carried out by the so called top tier of theworld uon other nations and even via Snowden on their own populations.
When an issue becomes a common gossip issue that has been talked about not for 16 yeras but from some for 40 years and the charity (PACE) claims if we did a whole investigation into larger cities-and we observers of the so called great and ‘good’ who control us all in their rotten -establishments-all which have come under scruitiny-from the Catholic Church-to the establishment elite -from members of the Royal Family and the attrocities from military macho male culture and other mainly male dominant cultures -such as police -and the very fact that on our screens on adaily basis we see both the tarnishing and corruption of many of these establishment forces come into disrepute over similar allegations of neglect or actaul involvement and cover up of the issues-surely what is being revealed is that most organisations controlled for capitalist corrupt greed and exploitation-then I would suggest -nay demand -that every organisation-business -enterprise public or private and every organisation from family and right to the top tier need investigating for the exploitation and abuse of power that still goes onto today -even in the fractured familly structure that under capitalism is seen as production factory for the next genertaion of slaves. Capitalism’s whole value system of commodification of a dog eat dog world which holds the philosophy of survival of the fittest and the continuous oppression that every one who has not got wealth -power etc-that depravity can be carried out by certain groups who have either the ego or power or even alienation from a society that does not value them -will emanate sooner or later.
I do not dismiss your endeavout=r SKk but you did say -dig deeper-well we are only at the surface and unless we become communities and stop the madness of iundividualism over the wider community causes and concerns we will always find rotten apples in a structure that sepataes from known what is going on around us.Also the fact that we all have to go on training for tis and that does not make you an expert -and I am not acouncillor -but it is the fact that many become sheep in the system to survive and because we have to cow to those in leadership or reified roles where you get head nodders and many just too scared or not wanting to rock our heirarchial boat that we get situations like we have in now the centre of Sexual grooming and abuse along with the fat town and the town that needs to read more etc. Those dark forces who control the whle situation certainly know what they are doing inensuring that Rotheham is a certain seat for the potential broker of politics into the future by design or by playing on all the weaknesses that create the world that creates and aggravates the Divide and rule button when it is uits them.
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‘Christianity’s misogny’… Wow Tom. I am truly amazed by the ignorance of that statement. For someone so ‘respected’ by Rotherham’s left wing, how could you spout such nonsense. I take it you also include Islam and Judaism in your ill-informed generalisation? I only ask, because Christianity was the only faith singled out by name.
Christianity respects and exalts women. From the Samaritan woman by the well, to women finding the empty tomb, Christianity has flown in the face of conventional thinking about women for the past 2000 years – Don’t confuse the actions of men with the teachings of Christ and the Apostles; you wouldn’t like it if I said socialism WAS Stalinism. Even the earlier Judaism exalts its Sarah, its Ruth, its Esther etc and has a God that protects outcasts like Haggar. I can’t speak for Islam but I’m fairly sure you’ve probably upset one or two muslims also. I can foresee you may rush for some New Testament scripture to take out of context, but if you do, perhaps you could have the guts to include a few sura from the Qu’ran, maybe some lines from the Talmud – just to keep it balanced and fair like a good socialist must.
I used to look up to you Tom. I believed you were a man of integrity. To say that what happened in Rotherham should be seen as a societal issue, and not a specific issue for a certain section of our community, even after everybody else has had to acknowledge the background of the perpetrators is cowardly in the extreme; and the claim that it is somehow a problem of ‘capitalism’… it beggars belief. You’re views are a gift to the far right. The sad thing is, it’s not the societal points you raise, it’s the timing. There have been no arrests yet and you’re already ‘moving the debate on’ – how very politico of you.
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Judging by what you say SKT, I think we should also include every male member of the Asian community in Rotherham, ever white male in Rotherham over the age of 25 and every single member of whatever other community you can think of if you start talking about who knew what!
I believe hundreds, if not thousands of people in Rotherham were aware of what was going on BUT also knew that RMBC Labour Group were and would cover it up. It took a National newspaper reporter to start the ball rolling and force RMBC into a corner from which they could not escape.
Peter Thirlwall tried to expose them on many occasions but, as we all know, he was even arrested and placed in the police cells for daring to open his mouth and question them.
SKT don’t you realise that here in Rotherham we live in a Communist Dictatorship which FORTUNATELY has just started to fall apart and thank God for it!
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Sally
A question for you
You seem to be well in the know about the internal bullying and fear of staff to come forward in RMBC
I don’t think I saw your name of the list of interviewed or people who met with professor Jay
Why did you not go forth with information you knew
I think that should be answered
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Sally,
Great post. Thought provoking as always. But if I may summarise…
What is required – 1) the police to do their job, investigate and arrest whoever the evidence leads to. 2) Local government, social services, local MPs (anyone involved in the ‘care’ of Rotherham’s children) to do their damned jobs, and get fired if they don’t.
We already have all the laws and guidelines that should have prevented anything like this. Arrest the guilty, sack the incompetent. Summary finished.
People of Rottenham, call for a full council election now. Then everyone will have to explain themselves. Don’t let them hide behind endless reports and inquiries. (And before the usuals shout about throwing babies out with bath water etc, good councillors should have nothing to worry about and should welcome the chance to publicly state their case.)
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Anon – sorry it didn’t take a national newspaper (and media) to start the ball rolling. The questioning about malpractice began much earlier in 1995, 1997 and 2003 to Senior Management at RMBC, the associated private and charitable agencies and the elected and unelected officials (of all parties) and it carries on to the present day. However, the press and media did pick it up (They were not to know at the onset) and I am grateful to them. I am grateful for all they can have done and can do. They have been invaluable. The BBC and The Times in particular. May they long support the fight for justice – which I know they will.
As for Mr Thirwall and my previous question in relation to another one raised by another poster (ANdrewq I believe) – as I said innocent until proven guilty – or innocent – I’m not presuming – but I am not omitting anyone in my questions.either – and neither should others.
Whoever held senior office (elected or unelected) during the period has to answer for their role or non role – no exceptions. I am sure Mr Thirwall understands my honest intent and aims – as does Mr Vines / Mr Turner (who I also questioned) and ALL the others (who I have questioned constantly) – and I’m sure they will welcome my request so that they can provide ALL the evidence openly and honestly.
No stone (including Roger) should be left unturned. Yes Mr Thirwall was ejected from the meeting you describe but that is current history and not the issue – what I want to know is past the history of ALL concerned during the period 97 – 2104,what they did or did not do to address the CSE issues, what they and others knew (or don’t know) about the seminar and the CSE scandal, and I want them all to show us all the proof.they have (Or others that can prove otherwise) Like I said no exception and of course no pre presumption of guilt or innocence. Openness and full accountability isn’t a lot to ask for considering the scale of the issue from ALL who held any degree of power or influence. .
As all know Mr Cutts claimed at the RMBC meeting yesterday ‘Everyone knew’ and he said ‘everyone should take responsibility’ – and I believe he said ‘all members (of all parties) should resign for their role’. I find that a most alarming statement that needs expansion. Now it may be unusual for me (but not without precedent) for me to agree with a Tory on a particular issue – but this issue is not about personal politics – it is about the truth. Nothing more nothing less.
What I want to know is if Mr Cutts is telling the truth – and I must assume in begrudging fairness to him considering his role he is – what does he base this claim on, what are the facts, what evidence does he have, what does he know about each one he accuses, who was involved and what exactly was their involvement during the period? (Including his own role). Also what .did all ‘the others’ he mentioned (and that includes past and present councillors) know about the CSE. (and the seminar – though this is but one small part)
Such a statement by Mr Cutts can not be dismissed or taken lightly. Mr Cutts must have had valid reasons for saying it and unless he is casting unfounded assertions, (which if he is doing so is shameful in itself) Mr Cutts statement has opened up the need for further in depth focus on ALL he accuses if he is correct.
A further full and impartial third party investigation should ensue now about his statement and what it entails. As well as full explanations from each he accuses if he is telling the truth. Also Mr Cutts claim that the South Yorkshire senior police management used subjudicious threats as a means to silence needs addressing now. Personally, I hope against hope that Mr Cutts is wrong. For if he is correct it means that the ENTIRE structure of local accountability, public service, service provision and representation for the people by the people at EVERY level and in every nook and cranny is but a meaningless charade. (Which to some degree it is already).
As for Community Leaders and other officials – including private contractors and charities (there were many) – yes I mean every community / local representative, official (elected or unelected) involved. And not just males as you suggest – females too – Ms Thacker / Bailey / Sharp for a start. The perpetrators of these vile end evil crimes may have been male – but females were involved in the cover up at not only the highest level – but within all agencies too..Let’s not loose sight of that.
To date we have had only a glimpse of what went on. For example the inquiry didn’t go far enough as far as the role of ‘alternative providers’ and ‘community leaders’ was concerned. (It wasn’t just the Social Services) There is still a lot of ‘guilt’ to expose.- and however long it takes, or who is to be questioned, all should be made accountable now. Guilt is guilt nothing more nothing less. Let the innocent be without fear of conscience or redress – but the guilty fear judgement of the innocent is my aim – not a witch hunt.
Furthermore I believe the questioning of everyone involved may also give an insight in to how this issue was covered up. It will give them a chance to speak openly. I also believe the staff who raised the issue, and were bullied beyond imagination, should also be allowed to tell what went on. It will not only reveal the plot, but how the methods of intimidation that aided the cover up and led to the conspiracy of silence based on fear continuing. In short let’s reveal the faults in the system warts and all as well as those at fault.
As for your statement we are living in a Communist Dictatorship. I think that blurs the issue. This isn’t about an alleged Communist Dictatorships – its about the dictatorship of self interest and moral corruption. The scandal involved statutory / voluntary agencies , private companies. people who should have been protecting us all, and leaders and members of our so called community (of all hues) who simply stayed silent for reasons of self self preservation. Yes those at the top (in every agency – including the council) – may be bullies and dictators but it they aren’t communist busily plotting – they are simply people without any moral compass at all.
Finally to Goblegook87@google.com who quotes: “I would like to address the above in the context of trying to say to SKK that if you go down the road of wanting heads with your salami knife -from those at close quarters to both historic -horrific child sexual abuse -events you will have to take us all to task-and i mean many in the population of Rotherham and across the whle oif society and the wider world who were aware of the same issues in their location by hearsay-or general gossip -even if some of it was in racist terms. Also you would have to seek to bring out the real issue that underpins the whole situtaion across the world in various degrees with some cultures being more male domiant than others in both their religious ideology of thepolace of women in their cultures and religion-including Christianity’s misogny. the whole world -as each of us as Jesus is acclaimed to have said -‘Let he who is not without sin -throw the first stone’
Gobblegook – I don’t want a salami knife or heads to roll for the sake of it – I want the guilty to pay and the surgeons practiced and precise knife to cut through the lies. I don’t want racism to play a part (I get that personally – my name is so misleading – though it is my name) I want justice for the victims. (And that includes the children and the staff and individuals who outed this many years ago and paid a huge price – many couldn’t comprehend). I don’t want people like the EDL and others – who have no interest in Rotherham – to take advantage and create hate. I don’t want gossip (regular contributors on Rothpol know well how I complain about that) I want facts and the truth. I don’t want scapegoats or bullying – we’ve had enough of that already – believe me we have within the staff of RMBC and the agencies – I want the guilty outed. It’s not a lot to ask for really considering the scale of the the scandal .and the suffering of the victims and families.
As for your observation re power corrupts – I do agree and It’s not just within RMBC this is misused. There is a big element of the powerful abusing their power to bully ‘lessers’ within the system that is still to come out re this scandal – as is that of the role of ‘others’ yet to be named publicly. (A major one in my humble opinion)
I am not saying we can change the world, or that we are all without sins. That is beyond me. However, what I am saying is in our own little part of the world we can set an example .And that example is those that collude will pay – those that abuse will pay – those that hide will not be able to hide – and while we all know CSE will never be eradicated – we will do all we can to ensure the criminals are punished, the victims are supported, the lessons are learned, the proper systems and support are in place and never again will silence and intimidation be allowed. In short our answer to the question ‘who will watch the watchers’.should be everyone – and very closely indeed..
SKT
PS: I have had people accuse me and say to me (and I am being polite) “you are ruining the reputation of Rotherham – shut up” My response is to all who have said this is ‘I’m nor ruining it – it’s already in the gutter to those looking from the outside and seeing what is going on – I’m trying to regain it.”
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My dear wise old friends (now deceased) had a fairly large poster on the wall inside the entrance of the door. Everyone who entered the house were confronted with it. It read ‘WHAT WILL YOU BE REMEMBERED FOR’ A salutary thought . We will of course be remembered for something.
In my old age I find myself reminiscing on funny sayings that my mother often said. My favourite one is ‘ YOU CAN ALLUS KEEP A BAD NAME BUT NEVER A GOOD UN’ Very true.
With this in mind, the councilors , police and agencies who knew and (for their own sanity as well as those who were irreparably harmed) should put up their hand and admit failure and follow it up with sincerely trying to recompense those they have harmed. The ancient world had a very good judicial system in some respects. If you pinched a loaf of bread you paid back seven loaves. Simple eh. Paying back some of money paid to officials for their services to the community would go a some way to redeeming their character. . It would never be enough but it would help the guilty to sleep at night and face the public again … It would be a travesty of justice for the taxpayer to compensate for the failure of council…So there it is…. The choice is simple but hard. You can do it voluntarily or by force. I hope I would choose the former as a test of my own sincerity.
Viewing the RMBC meeting by webcast the lady who heads the children’s services admitted they had received an award for excellence. Give the darn thing back and admit at the time your agency was unworthy of it. Apologise to the people who were harassed for raising the issue with council..These are small steps but can go some way to bring about the healing process for all concerned. In some cultures there is no word for ‘sorry’. Sorry is something that is demonstrated in action. It’s not just a word. ‘WHAT WILL YOU BBE REMEMBERED FOR’. Respectfully Linda Wheeler.
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I should have mentioned in previous correspondence only 2 choices are available to council….. Be truthful and resign or die by a thousand cuts.
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@Linda Wheeler.
Good post.
It would also be better IMV if Labour councillors and Council Officers re-read and memorised the Nolan principles. What we have in Rotherham and what we have seen and heard is self righteous and delusional behaviour by people who prefer to quote platitudes in the hope the sheeple will forgive and forget what has happened.
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An intresting take on the Jay report:
http://reason.com/blog/2014/09/04/what-is-the-rotherham-child-sex-exploita
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Why stop there? EVERY single teacher and hotel worker from the period of 1997 – 2014 (perhaps before) should prove what they officially did to question what was going on, when they saw girls going from their school or into their hotel. And if they stopped complaining /bringing up the issue – why? No soundbites – official proof needed.
Why stop there? What about EVERY parent waiting outside the school gates? EVERY friend of a girl being abused. EVERY parent of a friend of a girl being abused. EVERY neighbour of a taxi driver. EVERY neighbour of a teacher.
Why stop there? Why not every member of the public. Ask them why they didn’t stand for election so they could be a better councillor than what we’ve had. Ask them why they didn’t turn up to Council or Cabinet meetings all those years ago and ask what was going on. And if they stopped complaining/bringing up the issue – why? No soundbites – official proof needed.
Come on let’s get sensible. It is possible that a few had suspicions about individual girls or individual taxi drivers, but no one could be expected to put this picture together unless ALL OF US raised our concerns and told MPs, councillors, social workers, police. I don’t disbelieve the MPs when they said they didn’t have an inkling about this. People weren’t coming to them with lots of stories about this (although it’s terrible that the one case Mr Barron mentions wasn’t dealt with better by the Police). Same with the Councillors – well until 2005 anyway when it looks like they had a much clearer overall picture and it wasn’t just about individual cases.
By the way it is important to note that the Jay report doesn’t show any evidence that any Councillors had any knowledge about any of this until 2004/2005.So if we are going to have a witch-hunt let’s at least focus it where it should be focussed. But surely the most appropriate thing to do is to make sure previous victims are given the right support and that currently EVERYONE is making sure every child is safe.
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I have found this and I’m sure that this could be used upon the people who had a care of duty and be raised in cabinet against Joyce Thacker. The council’s solicitor will be present on the 10th so would be good to hear his comments.
I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you there is a single child neglect and abuse offense. The offence is child cruelty under section 1(1) Children and Young Peoples Act 1933. This offence, in the criminal law, is exactly mirrored in the definitions of child neglect and abuse in Working Together to Safeguard Children (2013). The offence, and the definitions in Working Together, are negligence offences. They are in respect to the negligence of the person with responsibility for the child when the child is a victim of an offence. Under section 1(2) a state’s official is expressly liable for the offence and under section 17 a person with parental responsibility or with care of the child is expressly liable.
Would be good to hear your comments as if this could be used.
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@notperfect Your blog raises interesting points. I can tell you from personal experience that when I was a teenager and kissed a lad at the bottom of the street , my Mother knew by the time I got home and dealt with the situation immediately. That was a general parental response to the hanky- panky of their children… Nosey parkers took their job seriously to good effect… It worked. Kids behavior was monitored by their communities. Though I sulked for a while until I was mature enough to appreciate what my Mother did for me was right and good. Parental authority has been whittled away over the last 50 years by those ‘experts’ who presumed to know better than parents. The horse has already bolted friends…. Teachers and agencies have assumed the role of guardians of our children and what we are now seeing is they do a bad job with the best intentions and big wages….So I hope that Not Perfect is not presenting us with such an overwhelming problem that we all creep back into our caves again and shut up. We have to start somewhere and for once the report by Alexis Jay has given the community somewhere to start. Authorities that are very well paid for the job of overseeing the good of our communities need to have the breeze put up them to encourage them to do what they are elected to do. I can imagine a few local councils are spending long periods in the ‘wee’ house’ contemplating their future. Those who in future choose to take on such awesome responsibility need to know they will be scrutinized . With respect. Linda Wheeler.NZ
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Just a thought that I want to make as an immigrant in a country I was not born in. We were made aware in the first week that we were guests in New Zealand and there were rules of conduct we were expected to follow. We were POMS living in the beautiful , sparsely populated country of NZ and we would have all the priviledges of native NZ’ers. Some POMS broke the rules and received the fitting title of whinging POMS. It was a well deserved title not a racist remark. Speaking truth is not necessarily racist when it refers to peoples inappropriate conduct in countries where they are treated better that they were in their own With respect Linda Wheeler nz..
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Mr Sylvester (ex Labour Councillor) in the ‘Tiser today made an interesting point about members (not all Labour) who sat on the police committee. (He mentioned Caven Vines – who were the others?) What did they know? Did they know at all? What did the police tell them? Why did they keep it quiet – if they did so? What did they do officially to raise or investigate it further? If hey didn’t why not? So many questions – so many answers needed.. Maybe Caven Vines (he was on that committee) can tell us all; or maybe not. Or he could get Martin Kimber to answer? Whatever – there are going to be questions asked. Very very big ones. Thinking on maybe Mr Sylvester could enlighten what he knows and why he raised this too? (Thoug h I am glad he did as it’s a little issue that has been plaguing me for quite a while)
However, this isn’t all about Councillors, I’ve said all along it isn’t. Though Mr Cowles (UKIP) in his letter (too party political and opportunist in my opinion at this time) to the Tizer seems to think it is. However, if we are going to look at all councillors from 97 -2014 my message to Mr Cowles is question some of your own too – very rigorously – open up the investigation – I think you will find a large percentage have questions to answer too. (I refer you to my previous points about Police Committees and those who have sat as councillors before during the period.) Indeed I would welcome a list of all who sat on those police committees – everyone – then the investigation can go further and each can be held accountable for they actions or lack of action – whichever applies..
Not Perfect – I agree with your point we all should be watchful. Individuals / society as a whole does bear a responsibility if it / they turn away and ignore. But trust me – some at the top – and some making sweet public statements who aren’t known yet knew a lot more than they will say or have said to date. (Council / unelected official and agencies) If they don’t say what they know now they will be outed. The wheels are in motion. Better to come clean today than be shown to have double standards later.
SKT
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Sally
I have answered Sylvester’s allegations in the press
to the media ware all can read or hear it
And have given a full account as I remember when I was on the SYPA for one year 2005
And also my time as a Independent Councillor between 2004 :2006
I have nothing to hide and been very open to questions put to me
It has been on most radio and tv and most news papers
I answered your questions last week on Radio Sheffield twice on Toby foster show and again on Ronny Robinson
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For your info Sylvester was a Lib Dem Councillor for what is now Kepple Ward who stepped down a short time into his term I don’t know why he did that and now it looks like he is trying to make favour with his Labour masters maybe he can see the opportunity to find a Labour Seat who knows
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Sally, as a bit player in this horrible affair it was always my intention to publish, what I knew and did on this issue. What does rather concern me though, is that by being as open as I have and will be, you seem to be portraying me as a leading light in all of this, which could not be further from the truth. There must have been around 150 councillors involved over the period, who were senior to me, as well as all the other people involved, so why am I being given this status? Why was I the first name on the list following the real culprits? I would have thought that my name would have appeared at about 150 on the list.
I have tried to recall and record what I knew and it has not been easy so long after the event. When I have got hold of the last piece of the jigsaw and this frenzy has died down I will publish my recollections. At present nobody would want to hear what I have to say unless I suggested hanging everyone, remotely associated with the issue, from Rotherham Minster
I was warned before I entered this debate that I should keep my head down and let others take the flack. That may have been good advice as it has worked out but just not my style and I may now have to take the consequences.
By the way it is not possible to prove a negative, so it would not be possible for anyone to prove what they didn’t know.
However Sally, you do seem to be quite a nice, sensible person, but it is not for you to tell me what I should and shouldn’t do. I will do what I think is right regardless of your nagging. I didn’t allow myself to be bullied at school, at work or by the Labour Council so I will not let myself be bullied by you now.
‘Not Perfect’ seems to have come out with the most common sense on this issue and readers may wish to reflect on what he has to say.
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CAvewn – I’m not interested in what people ,say on the radio or to the media. I want all the evidence from EVERYONE out in the eopen – fully published and explained. I odn’t expect anyone to just reely on press statements – whichever party they represent or whatever position they may have been in. Fulkl accountability for all – nothing more nothing less. The full account sof all these meetings and actions should be made public. By all conncerened.
As for the frenzy dying down – it won’t. There should be know ‘as I remeber’ by anyone. Full details please of all meetings – actions – and the evidence to proove it. And that mean sall involved in the Police AUthority, seminar and any council business.
Mr Thirwall – you say I am bullying you. I am not. I am aiaming to get the full picture out in the public eye. ANd by that I man every single individual individual musty explain. I understand bullying well. Very well indeed. And it isn’t nagging (a very sexist terrm that would sit well in the Counciul Chamber acxcording to the report. (which only told 1/4 of the truth)
Cavan, as for My Sylvester, I will ask him questions too. I will ask all.
I have placed the Labour councillors under the spot light and I will continbue to do so. But accountability must be seen to be met by all IN FULL.
NOw for as for any others on here who may have been involved in the process in any way – full details of what you know please.
SKT xxxx
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Mr Thriwall if 150 councillors need questioning then 150 must be questioned. I don’t know why your name was first on that list. All i know is you and Caven come on here regularly so that’s why I asked here. I and my representatives will ask the others wherever I or they can.
Now this isn’t just meant for Mr Thirwall or Caven Vines who were asked questions because they come on here. Maybe the proposed independent police inquiry may be able to take this issue of accountability and knowledge re the police authority up as a matter of concen? Then the full story (and people named and shamed and many named and exonerated) will come out. Like I said – no judgement yet – for that facts are needed. But the report missed too many things for the issue to be closed. Indeed I know Mr Vines and Mr Thirwall (in relation to the seminar) will support this. They want openness – and clarity is all.
Mr Thirwall I slightly disagree that I and others shouldn’t tell you what to do. It isn’t telling you what to do, that’s up to you . It’s asking for information. Something you rightly do often. But I do think everyone should ask all to make all information public. Like I said innocent until proven otherwise – but for that judgment many want information.
SKT xxxx
PS : Caven, I didn’t, as your reply seems to think,ask you questions on Radio Sheffield or the Toby Foster Show. Radio Sheffield do an excellent job but if I was to have asked you questions on such excellent forums I would have informed you first in fairness. I’m not after scalps for the sake of it like some are – – just the full picture. If I ask for information I believe the person I ask should have time to prepare the full information I require and then I take it from there if there are gaps.. Whoever asked you in such a way it wasn’t me. Just thought I’d clear that one up.
SKT xxxx
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