56 thoughts on “Brexit the Movie

  1. There is nothing funny about it, did you think it funny that we have little or no fishing industry and have to import fish from the E U caught in OUR TERRITORIAL WATERS. Did you also see the regulations regarding pillows among other things also how many buildings and the amount of people employed by the E U, and what about the benefits they have. We want to save our steel industry but Brussels says we cannot subsidise it why then do Germany Belgium to name but two do it. As for food prices being more you did not see the part where if a farmer cannot grow and sell his produce because it is produced cheaper OUTSIDE the EU he complains and the commission slaps a tarrifs on the imports therefore meaning we have to buy the more expensive product watch again and study it a bit more

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    • That is just a small sample. You forget the role of the EU Commission as a nice little earner for failed or past their use by date politicians. It is a lovely little number for unemployable political has beens.
      I see why many labour louts like it, they really do not like democracy and prefer to decide things behind closed doors and not to brook any opposition.
      Greece has been raped and Portugal, Spain and Italy are next. Ireland is in debt beyond any hope of clearing its debts…
      However it is a nice little advantage for core countries using the Euro making it easier for them to export. A sort of Fourth Reich. They tried it with war now they are using deceptions.
      As for the film referred to, that is a libertarian view of why the EU stinks. It stinks every way you look at it. It is a trading block and an under-performing one at that.
      However if we leave the bogey man and the seven plagues of Moses will get us…David Cameroon and Common Purpose say so. So there.
      Now about the economic predictions. How many of these institutions got their predictions right in the past? As economic forecasters they have been quite incapable. None of them saw the banking crisis of 2007-8. In fact they were saying all was well and we had reached a “great moderation”.
      No economic forecasts are accurate except in the very short term as they are plagued by black swan events. (Unknown surprises).

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    • The reason we have a Common Fisheries Policy is because:
      1 there are limited sustainable stocks of fish in the sea
      2. a fish that is today in our territorial waters may well have swam there from someone else’s territorial waters where it was yesterday.
      But this explains it, warts and all, better than I ever could:
      .The EU Common Fisheries Policy has helped, not harmed, UK fisheries
      https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/griffin-carpenter/eu-common-fisheries-policy-has-helped-not-harmed-uk-fisheries-0

      If you look around a bit you can generally find an “explainer” for all those shock-horror anti-EU claims made in that film,
      Sure the EU isn’t perfect, and I have certainly had a lot of frustration in my own dealings with the Commission over the years, but…

      (My elder granddaughter will be off to university in the Autumn. It is a pretty expensive thing to do in UK now, and it would be much cheaper for her to go to one of the many Dutch, Belgian and German universities that teach in English, universities that we as a family know well. But with things so unclear for UK’s future in the EU, she will be going to a UK college. )

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      • All around our coasts small communities have lost their livelihood from inshore fisheries. But no doubt there is same statistic to tell them this was good for them.

        I note the issue about universities but am unmoved by that. I do not believe the reforms of the last 25 years have improved university education in the UK and as for student loans they leave graduates in debt bondage for life in ta sort of neo-feudal hell hole.

        Now how about all these prophets of doom (on both sides) who are making their economic forecasts? None of these sources have a very good track record with their forecasts so why listen to them now?

        Can we sack EU commissioners? Can we have no confidence votes? Are they not self selecting? Are they not an oligarchy?
        Tony Benn, whom I knew personally (but disagreed with on quite a lot) said in a democracy we can sack those who govern us. This is not possible with the EU.
        If you cannot be rid of an unpopular government democratically then all that is left is the citizens’ duty to rebel. I would prefer elections to rebellion. For this reason above others there is a case to leave this new Reich.

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  2. And it we come out of the EU what will we all do for transport BMW Merks VW Fiats French built cars
    Spanish built trains and Buses
    What will we all do when they all stop trading with us
    We will carry on buying All these European goods they will sell to who ever will buy that’s what trading is all About
    Weather we are in the EU or not

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    • However when the Euro experiment ends like a car crash we could be supportive friends whether we are in or out of this faulty club. Greece for example will need international debt forgiveness.

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  3. Only a gutless, weak kneed moron would want to stay in the EU rather than be independent and self governing. The sooner Germany’s new empire collapses the better.

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  4. Nan always goes on about leaving the EU, but she never said anything about 18″ space rule, so if we leave the EU no more nan at the Christmas table.

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  5. I couldn’t stop laughing how our stupid MEP’s, can claim so much back. I know I hate the middle man as much as the rest of you.

    We get a rebate of around 30%.
    We get in return for projects (mainly in the north) around 60%.
    The heating bills in Brussels needs to come down a touch. 
    And the rest our MEP’s claim back in wages, running an office and travelling costs.

    The UK’s EU membership fee – Full Fact
    https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

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    • Source: HM Treasury doing Cameroon and Osborne’s bidding. That’s believable like the rest of the stats being chucked about.
      Still it may comfort those with a stay bias and a fear of the open ocean and the rest of the world.

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      • Actually I can’t wait to get out, I can’t wait to start subsidising our industries, and start placing tariffs on all disliked imports.

        Last year we built 1.6 million cars. We exported around 77% of these (~1.3 million). Can I clarify of nearly all built, an international mother company is at the helm.

        last year we bought ~2.5 million cars, in essence either we can’t afford the cars we built or you do the maths (2.2 million bought, mainly built in Europe).

        I suppose the rich won’t continue to get richer (apparently it’s different in the rest of the world), what ever we decide, they will have a keen eye on the £18 bn saved from the EU (which right now goes out through one door and in through the other, but at least benefits us one way or another).

        In out shake it all about, is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

        My interpretation we have all turned into Maggie, and the EU into trade unions.

        The truth is out there.

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        • I like the 1 were incamp say pensions will go down in value because of inflation lol.triple lock guarantees they wont .both sides lieing .im voting out

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      • The FullFact article is a very good explainer. If you think they are being deliberately inaccurate – complain to the Charity Commission.

        Now, the UK Statistics Authority have come down hard on the Brexiters on this subject.
        https://www.statisticsauthority.gov.uk/news/uk-statistics-authority-statement-on-the-use-of-official-statistics-on-contributions-to-the-european-union/

        and:
        Analysis by the Institute for Fiscal studies earlier this week suggests that the UK’s actual net contribution to the EU is £150m a week – less than half that claimed by Vote Leave.

        The Conservative chairman of the Treasury Select Committee Andrew Tyrie today described Vote Leave’s claim as “bogus” and called on the campaign to repaint their battle bus to remove it.

        http://www.politics.co.uk/news/2016/05/27/leave-campaign-slammed-by-statistics-watchdog-for-false-eu-c

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  6. The idea that the EU Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) has benefited the UK is complete and utter nonsense. If the argument for the CFP is that fish don’t recognise borders what happens when fish go into Norwegian waters? Norway’s fisheries and exports have grown massively over recent decades and are also ecologically sound and sustainable – without being in the EU.

    World Fishing: Norway a Model Industry
    http://www.worldfishing.net/news101/regional-focus/a-model-industry

    A Lesson for Great Britain : the Success of Norway’s Fishing Industry Outside the EU
    http://www.tfa.net/a-lesson-for-great-britain-the-success-of-norways-fishing-industry-outside-of-the-eu/

    Norway Raises More Fish Than the Whole EU
    http://www.eatglobe.com/news/fishing/1843-norway-raises-more-fish-than-the-whole-eu.html

    Iceland’s president dismisses the European Union’s Common Fisheries Policy as a “colossal failure” as some 75% of Europe’s fish stock is endangered.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21206881

    Having ruined the UK’s fishing industry the EU is now making a mess of Morocco’s fishing industry…..

    Stop the EU Fisheries in Western Sahara

    http://www.fishelsewhere.eu/

    © 2016 Microsoft Terms Privacy & cookies Developers English (United Kingdom)

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    • ______________________________________
      “The World Fishing: Norway a Model Industry” article is very good, thanks.

      The Freedom Association article below it is anti-EU polemic from 2011, and deserves the Mandy Rice-Davies response.

      “Norway Raises More Fish Than the Whole EU” is refering to farm fishing, and therefore off-subject I would have thought.

      The BBC piece leads with the opinion of Iceland’s president at Davos in 2013. Other quoted opinions include:
      The director of the University of California’s Scripps Institution of Oceanography agreed that the situation is very serious, and not only in Europe.
      German Metro AG supermarkets’ Mr Muller was critical of the way the current fisheries policy forces fishermen to throw an estimated 20% of their catch overboard because it does not fit with their quotas.

      I certainly agree with Herr Muller on that, and of course the EU has begun to take measures against that – http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21598367.

      Your final reference, claiming that “the EU is now making a mess of Morocco’s fishing industry…” .

      Well now, the Fish Elsewhere campaign began in 2006 as a campaign against the “FISHERIES PARTNERSHIP AGREEMENT between the European Communities and the Kingdom of Morocco.
      http://www.fishelsewhere.eu/a170x0

      The current situation they describe here: http://www.fishelsewhere.eu/a140x1484
      They are making the totally valid point that Morocco is illegally occupying Western Sahara.
      ___________________________________________

      Nothing in any of articles you cite go anywhere towards supporting your assertion that “The idea that the EU Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) has benefited the UK is complete and utter nonsense. ” . It is not even referenced in any of them other that the Freedom Association polemic.

      You may therefore find these useful reading, they both recent and on-subject:
      “What would Brexit really mean for the UK’s fishing industry?”
      http://ukandeu.ac.uk/what-would-brexit-really-mean-for-the-uks-fishing-industry/

      “Don’t blame the EU for the troubles of the fishing industry in the UK”
      http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2016/05/28/dont-blame-the-eu-for-the-troubles-of-the-fishing-industry-in-the-uk/

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  7. So if it is so good for us how come all our small fishing communities have been wiped out. Porlock Weir, Coombe Martin, etc, etc, all now ceased to function. Our inshore fisheries have dwindled.
    The statistical technique of aggregation so over used by economists hide more than it reveals.
    We had more stocks in 1946 for a simple reason. Much of our waters could not be fished because of mine fields. We have established a marine national park off Lundy Island in the Severn Sea and more would help. However there is a problem, the EU.
    The Hebrides box is another area that is in danger from the EU. Etc.
    As for fish migrating that is simplistic. Some species are territorial and others are migratory. Mackerel also show considerable population cycles, etc.

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    • PM
      In the real world things do change over time, and many factors are involved in those changes.

      I don’t know Porlock Weir or Coombe Martin; in fact I know the Atlantic coast down from Essaouira to Dakhla far far better than I know the South West Coast of UK.

      But I do know what happened to the small commercial fishing businesses of Bosham in West Sussex and nearby Emsworth in Hampshire – having lived in Bosham in the 1960s, and still going back there regularly. I regret the changes that have occurred there, but … it was societal changes in UK that were the cause, not the EU.
      – the seriously wealthy took over the village, buying up houses as second homes, the public bar in the Anchor Bleu disappeared when Barry left and the Anchor became a gastropub, the council housing was sold off via right to buy.

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        • Dylan sung “I’ll know my song well before I start singing”.
          I’ve always tried hard to follow those guidelines.

          … but sadly nothing I could ever write would ever change your views on the “evil EU”.
          I still find this so hard to understand.
          Do facts have no home in your world view?
          … and do you really have to blame something other and larger than yourself for everything that goes wrong in your life?

          See you the other side of the referendum.

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    • Sometimes the answers are so simple, but so hard to digest.

      “So if it is so good fat how come all our small fishing communities have been wiped out”

      Industrialisation of the fishing sector, competion from factory size vessels, sea based and lake based fish farms , wiped communities out. Did it ever occurr to you, we eat more fish than we ever have in recent history.

      Dirty politics comes to mind! Use and abuse others to further ones own agendas.

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      • So daring to have a different opinion from a high and mighty know it all is “dirty politics”. Silly me I thought that was more to do with beating people up and physical and psychological intimidation, or setting up weak politicians in honey traps and all that other stuff the old political parties may well do..
        Okay I accept black is white and hate is love and all is Topsy-turvy because anything else would be dirty politics. Anything else but totally agreeing with your particular and distorted economic view would be dirty politics. There, there diddums then. Strange I just thought I was commenting on a web site.
        Should I pass my views via you for correction and censorship?
        Oh, and “simple and obvious answers” have historically been wrong on so many occasions but what the heck.

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        • So what happened to our beloved high streets, please don’t use your imagination. A simple truth people’s with car’s, no longer shopping high street. Where gone people’s, shopping retail parks free parking and plenty parking.

          Don’t see anyone moaning about a nation of shopkeepers out of business.

          Fishing communities been depleted to extinction, yeah pull the other one.

          EvolUtion…Mmm..What we saying we don’t need to be hunter gatherer anymore…What we just need to turn up at a supermarket in our cars, change paper and plastic into actual things we need.

          I thought neanderthal man was dead and buried…But you’ll find him Brexiting.

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  8. Evil EU??? You find it “hard to understand” that others hold different views? That is a symptom of narcissism.
    Evil has been done to the poor of Greece and will be done similarly to Portugal, Spain and possibly Italy. The Irish have been left with a debt about their neck, but heck that is okay.
    Evil results these, unless you see what has been done to the Greek people as some perverted act of kindness?
    You use linear reasoning and seem unable to handle chaos nor complexity.
    Fishing communities were destroyed and dispersed. You would not be familiar with “The cause of things is infinite”. You put this down simply to a trend in a housing market. Economies have a myriad of interrelated markets, causes and consequences. Guess what, the EU was one of these.
    I have seen Danish boats practically up to the beach with fine nets but your statistical aggregate approach would deny this. You have a need, narcissus like, to have the last say.
    As a legend in your own mind “you are always right”!
    Oh and I will never wish to see you on any side of anything.

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  9. As for Dylan’s songs I have written a few

    Dylan Sings Eternally

    So Dylan drifts about and softly sings
    Off coasts he can be heard in calm or squall
    His fingers may have ceased to pluck the strings
    His gods it seemed had gone had met their fall
    Yet Dylan seems content, his songs lived on
    The winds across the Severn Sea hum sweet
    This poet, this great bard cannot be gone
    So long as folk have hearts, good hearts that beat
    And souls that seek to soar up with the birds
    Proclaiming out aloud, of life, of love
    Of all that may be said with rhythmic words
    That like the birds soar everywhere above.
    There’s more than merely words within a lay
    Through poesy and through song good folk do pray

    ©T.Morgan 2007
    From: Aethelflaed of Mercia

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    • “As for Dylan’s songs I have written a few”
      I don’t believe you,
      you are a liar!

      … and there is that line in Diamonds and Rust that seems to fit what you wrote so well:
      “My poetry was lousy you said “

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        • I have written them in the Pennines and along the coast and out at sea. The Conwy estuary is perhaps the best location asthe myths originate about there.
          Oh and do not be so ready to accuse others of being liars. You push some lines sometimes.

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        • Given that the discussion had begun with my Bob Dylan quote “I’ll know my song well…”
          and followed with a line from a Joan Baez song about Bob Dylan…
          I had expected that Poet Morgan knew that I was quoting something Bob Dylan said at a concert at Manchester’s Free Trade Hall on 7 May 1965, after being called Judas by someone in the audience.
          http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-36211789
          It has been in the news a lot recently!

          I could never have been expected to realise that he had decided to continue with his own poem on the welsh poet Dylan Thomas – a fine poet whose work I would have expected to recognise.

          I trust PM will understand now he knows the context.

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        • Fine poem by Dylan Thomas. I also Like the Lyrics of Bob Dylan, and Hank Williams and lots of other poets and lyricists.
          However, I like to go way back to the poets of the long distant past and to me the name Dylan immediately brings to mind the first and obviously mythical Dylan. I have written a lot about all that age of heroes. I did not particularly like the accusation but it is a word and words can be put aside whereas a punch in the eye cannot. Thanks all the same Woody.

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        • PM, we both love poetry – and that is quite possibly the one thing we have in common, but it is a lot.

          It was never my intention to call you a “liar”.

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  10. The consistently pro-EU LSE is not the most objective source of opinion neither is Kings College London, which receives redistributed British taxpayer monies (often referred to as EU funding).
    The research in this booklet, by someone who has has worked in the UK fishing industry for many years, is more compelling: The Betrayal of Britain’s Fishing to the European Union

    Click to access Fisheries-booklet-FULL.pdf

    Norway rejected EU membership at the same time that the UK joined the EU, so it is useful to compare both industries over the last 40 years. With regard to fishing, key questions to ask are : What is the disadvantage to Norway of being outside the EU’s CFP? Why has Norway’s fishing jobs and exports grown massively over the last 40 years whilst the UK’s fishing industry has declined? On all measures the Norwegian fishing industry is doing far better than the UK’s:

    http://www.norwayexports.no/seafood-fishing-aquaculture/

    “In 2015, Norway exported NOK 74,5 billion worth of seafood, which is an increase of 8 % year on year. Norway is the world’s second largest seafood exporter and the top list of exporting markets include Poland, Denmark, France, the UK, the US, Netherlands, Spain, Japan and Portugal. Despite tough financial times around the world, the industry has yet again been able to set yet a new export record”
    http://www.eurofish.dk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=119%3Anorway&catid=37&Itemid=68

    “The European Union is the most important market for Norwegian fish and seafood. In 2013, 59% of all fish and seafood exported from Norway were directed to the EU market, making Norway the leading supplier of fish and seafood to European consumers. In value terms, Norway exported fish and seafood for NOK 36.1 billion to the EU market in 2013, up 20% compared to 2012”

    Also, fishing standards and regulations increasingly come from global bodies not the EU:
    EU regulation: Codex is the top table : http://eureferendum.com/results.aspx?keyword=bjorn

    As the following clip shows, outside the EU, Norway exercises more influence than the UK on the global fishing standards that the EU eventually implements: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sVxeXmYTHU

    The full evidenced plan of how a post EU Britain’s fishing industry can recover and prosper can be found in the EU exit strategy – the Market Solution:

    Click to access flexcit.pdf

    Also, the full extent of the damage of EU fishing policy in Africa is detailed more extensively in the Market Solution (P.134) :
    “Foreign trawlers are strip-mining African waters of their fisheries resources. It’s a scandal. It’s almost international piracy. Having seriously mismanaged its home fisheries, [the EU] is now exporting the problem elsewhere and robbing people of their future”.

    Appreciate that fisheries is a really complex area which is why, in my opinion, the research of Dr Richard North is by far the best source of information rather than EU funded bodies.

    © 2016 Microsoft Terms Privacy & cookies Developers English (United Kingdom)

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    • John WIlkinson’s opinion is that:
      “The consistently pro-EU LSE is not the most objective source of opinion neither is Kings College London, which receives redistributed British taxpayer monies (often referred to as EU funding).”
      Whilst one of the articles I cited was published by LSE, the other came from within the
      UK in a Changing Europe program and its authors were;
      Dr Bryce Stewart, lecturer at the University of York and Griffin Carpenter, Economic Modeller at the New Economic Foundation.
      Whilst the program is hosted by KIngs, this describes it: http://ukandeu.ac.uk/about-us/

      Mr Wilkinson:
      Question 1: What percentage of the overall income of LSE and Kings comes from the EU, and for what funding purposes?
      (My kid went to University of Bremen under Erasmus – it was his choice alone; so don’t please include Erasmus funding in your response, or at least give it a line of its own.)

      Question 2: Do you have a list of what you consider more objective Universities / Academic Institutions that one can trust?

      (Personally, I am getting really tired of the Brexit line that because a think tank, university, whatever gets some EU funding, it has to be biased towards the EU.
      UKIP and its MEPs and their staff get shed loads of money from the EU, but look how those people feel about the EU. )

      Question 3: Are you still wishing to defend your earlier links – the ones that I responded to with “Nothing in any of articles you cite go anywhere towards supporting your assertion that “The idea that the EU Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) has benefited the UK is complete and utter nonsense. ” . It is not even referenced in any of them other that the Freedom Association polemic… “,

      Question 4: Do you accept that you totally misinterpreted/misunderstood the situation when you wrote “”“the EU is now making a mess of Morocco’s fishing industry…” .
      _________________________________
      Whilst I recognise your respect for Dr Richard North, (PhD in public sector food-poisoning surveillance from Leeds Met). He just has never impressed me on any subject other than perhaps BSE.

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      • Interesting. You put forward a lot of reasons why fisheries had to die including house price inflation and not the EU.
        Collect together your points and those of Snotspot and apply these self same points to Tata Steel locally. Wow, you would then sound like the destroyers of our manufacturing base. There seems to be a line being fed here rather than discussion.
        I like your above comment it is in the good old fashioned “shoot the messenger” school. Thought of becoming a Labour MP?

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      • Traitor you say, how did we get in the EU in the first place, oh wise one.

        Nanny state you say, we’ll have a new nanny and daddy to look after us, he’ll continue listening to big business too.

        And the money maker’s will continue unabated, the rich richer the poor poorer, but hey we’re in control of our destiny, bull shit if I ever heard it.

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        • Last paragraph is a non sequitur. The 1% will still be there whether in or out. Hlu are imagining what I think. T ECB and Euro banisters must love patsies like you two…

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  11. Perhaps the piece I found most questionable in the video was the visit to Switzerland where they discussed the reason for Switzerland’s relative prosperity with a group of people from a right-wing Swiss magazine, who told them that Switzerland’s property was because Switzerland was not in the EU.

    Now, I only spent 3 years working for the Union Bank of Switzerland in a range of countries, and 4 years working for the Bank for International Settlements in Basel Switzerland, so I may have got it all wrong, but I always have been led to believe is that the underlying reason for Switzerland’s prosperity was that it never went through the trauma of two World Wars in the 20th Century,.

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    • Yes and their banking laws saw them okay for a while. They are also frequently subject to use of the referendum. They seem to have lots of them. I really liked Chur.
      The film was quite woolly about the Swiss. The authors seemed to be sort of Austrian school(ish) libertarian. The subject could be handled from other angles.

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      • “Yes and their banking laws saw them okay for a while.” I do have a very clear understanding of the banking sector in many countries as you might expect.

        ” The authors seemed to be sort of Austrian school(ish) libertarian.”. Yup very much the attitude of the the German-speaking areas in the east of the country – the ones that were very late in giving women the vote.
        My son spent his primary school years in Basel, but he loved going across to the Appenzell cantons – it was like a fairy land; everyone wore funny clothes, lads his age smoked pipes, and they had beauty contests for goats.

        But this has just happened a few miles from where we used to live:
        http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/religious-controversy_pupils-must-shake-teachers–hands-in-basel/42178476
        (Our son continues to shake hands with his teachers in UK when we returned – he just couldn’t break the habit. )

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        • Goats! Love that quote. Why with all the wonderful variety of cultures and customs across Europe (including the UK) does anyone want to have conformity controlled by a Commission and regulations. There was an attempt to stop the cheese rolling in Gloucestershire a few years back. It have been going on since way back but a ban was attempted. All too silly. Variety is the spice that was once the vigour of Europeans and their cultures

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