Full results to pour over:
| Rawmarsh Ward By-Election May 16th 2013 | |||
| Name | Description | Votes | % |
| Baldwin G | BNP | 80 | 3.2 |
| Parker M | Conservative | 107 | 4.3 |
| Wright L | Labour | 1039 | 42.1 |
| Meharban M | LibDems | 28 | 1.1 |
| Gray A | TUSC | 61 | 2.5 |
| Vines C* | UKIP | 1143 | 46.4 |
| Votes Cast | 2464 | ||
| Electorate | 9580 | ||
| Turnout % | 25.7 | ||
| *Elected | |||
.
Rotherham Politics 
Big thanks to all those who voted Caven, what Rotherham really needs when it’s being hit hard by austerity is a party that supports more austerity! And what better person to be elected than Caven, the fabulous right wing candidate who previously worked closely with the BNP’s very own Marlene Guest.. hey, he might do something about those “Muslims in Britain who can do what they want with the government’s blessing”… ahh! 🙂
What a farce.
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Let’s also cancel the European Regional Development Fund that gives our area millions every year to help to generate much need jobs in our area (you never hear UKIP mentioning that in their scaremongering anti-EU propaganda) Let’s also give the rich tax breaks (That is in UKIP policies not that any of their voters bother to read those) and end all job security. Then when half the town is unemployed let’s cut benefits, but that’s OK at least you’ll only starve and not die of lung cancer after UKIP make blowing second hand smoke in someone’s face compulsory or have your house washed away by a flood caused by global warming which apparently UKIP in defiance of all sane logic and evidence to the contrary don’t believe in. Well at least you’re not gay, an immigrant or a fox, right? Then they’ve really got it in for you.
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Oh yeah, forgot to mention best not get lung cancer cause the NHS will be privatised and being unemployed you wont be able to afford any treatment or care.
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More than a teeny bit over the top, but that is certainly the direction that UKIP policies point to.
But have Labour ever made voters aware of this? Have the Tories?
(UKIP’s seriously nutty Energy And Climate Change Policy document seems to have disappeared off their website. )
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UKIP do seem to be becoming a serious political party!
Suspect this will be completed this autumn, ready for net years local and European elections!
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Well, the Tories can’t really argue with UKIP policies as there’s are largely the same. They’re pretty much the same party only difference is that no-one has suffered UKIP yet so some tories seem to believe they are different. Labour will only benefit from UKIP so they’re being quiet.
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Sticks and stones my friend But I do put my head above the parapit and dont hide behind a nick name
The peoples choice thats democracy Somthing you are not too up on in the Labour Group ahh!
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Well done Caven, thought that Rawmarsh folk had been taken advantage of by Labour, just once too often! You have proved it!
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I will agree with you on your democracy point, seeing as I despise the Labour Party 🙂
So what are your plans for Rotherham? As a UKIP councillor will you be supporting the cuts?
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How about letting Caven enjoy his celebratory pint or two, before taking him to task.
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Go on then rothpol.. I’ll save the scrutiny for later.
It is quite an achievement to have displaced Labour/the Wrights – so for that point I’ll say well done Caven.
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A very big slap on the back to you Mr Vines. Even though I disagree with everything that UKIP stands for as I always say that’s democracy. Well Done and my very best wishes in serving Rawmarsh.
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Am I the only one concerned about the fact that someone, who is unable to spell, punctuate or employ correct use of grammar, is to play a vital part in the operation of democracy in South Yorkshire and control a multi-million pound budget?
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The ability to read, would make a pleasant change by comparison to some I could name.
No wonder that RMBC is considered to be one of the most ‘officer led’ in the North!
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26% turnout isn’t democracy at it’s best.
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“what Rotherham really needs”
What everywhere in the country really needs as a bare minimum is a political establishment that won’t cover up the rape and torture of 1000s of children.
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quite so. Someone new and fresh, maybe?
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Congratulations, Ukip!!
Another step along the road to retaking our nation from the Eurofascists.
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Congratulations to Caven Vines – many in Rotherham will take satisfaction from this result not necessarily because they support UKIP but because it’s a wake up call to Labour and a particular blow against their nauseous brand of nepotism and trough filling political careerism. I wish him well in the Council Chamber.
A bit of anoraky analysis: What is noticeable is that BNP vote collapsed from over 700 votes in 2010 (370 odd in 2011). Perhaps this was because BNPers switched to a party that had a chance to beat Labour? The combined UKIP/BNP vote in 2010 was more than the UKIP vote here. Allowing for some present-day inertia and apathy, It suggests that the right-wing vote remains fairly constant, picking up any new votes from disaffected Tories if from anywhere. Disillusionment with Labour is expressed as staying at home rather than switching – they are down 1,600 votes from 2010, and 800 from 2011. Whatever, the message for Labour is the same: ignore the legitimate concerns of working class people at your peril. I was always enraged by mainstream parties complacently bewailing the rise of the BNP – they never asked themselves “why are working class folk voting for this mob?” with the obvious answer that it’s because the mainstream has stopped caring or listening. UKIP have now provided a viable (dare I say more respectable?) alternative – result: Labour lose. Great! But personally I would prefer an Independent centre-left moderate alternative to present itself to the voters at some point (watch this space) to appeal to those people who long for Labour to return to it’s true destiny. The other noticeable factor is the collapse of the coalition parties here, Conservatives down by 600 votes. A bad message for Cameron trying to laugh off UKIP who are seen as a genuine alternative for many who can actually bother to vote. And the Lib Dems, oh dear! They may claim they made a gain of 28 votes having not run before! But you would have expected them to pick up a good portion of the 300 folk who voted Green in 2011, surely? It’s a disaster for them akin to being beaten by a Vicar!
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Rev,
A good analysis, but perhaps not anorakky enough – it just made me have to go and work out the percentages for the 2010 election onward.
You are right to point out the earlier relationship between the UKIP and BNP votes – together they made up 28% of the vote in 2010 and 25% in 2011, and in 2012 when UKIP didn’t stand BNP still managed to get 21%.
This year tho’ their votes added up to 51% (UKIP – 48%, BNP – 3%), a remarkable change. My assumption is that that 3% is BNP’s core and immovable vote.
UKIP/Caven also picked up the majority of the votes that had previously had gone to the tories (down from an historic average of some 14% to 4%), and a fair number of Labour votes (down from an historic average of some 59% to 43%).
Nationally Cameron should be very worried, locally Labour have a lesson to learn, and not long to learn it in.
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Labour council candidates get very little support or money in strongholds and that’s not likely to change unless a party challenges control of the council which is very unlikely.
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Thanks Regular Reader – we (ie you) need to get out more! lol
I suspect many Tories and some Labour went to UKIp but it looks as if many stayed away full stop – I can’t see how Tories could regard this result as anything but deeply worrying and Lib Dems didn’t even get beyond their own party worers by the looks of it.
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Everyone should be worried about the way turnouts are dwindling.
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Well done Caven. There couldn’t have been a better result, especially in keeping out the Wright dynasty, or is that dinosaurs?
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Yes I will be under scrutany and rightly so
And if im failing in my Duties as a Councillor then I need this pointing out
But I will represent the People of Rawmarsh Like I did Rotherham West In Local Politics the People come first.
Party Politics change as often as the wind direction
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Thank Rothpole
It will take me a couple of weeks to get organised and put things in place but people will have my No and E-Mail if they need to contact mr in the mean time
And thank you for running a very fair and well ballanced election coveridge.
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Here’s a tip for you while you are getting organised. First type your comment in Word; then use the spellchecker; then paste it into the comment box. If you don’t do this you will come across as an illiterate ignoramus. Which I’m sure you’re not 😉
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Sensible suggestion. That’s what I have to do – I also have to deal with dyslexia, it’s a PITA.
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Well done Caven.
The tide is turning – let’s just hope it’s flowing in the right direction !
Maybe that should be “the best direction for Rotherham” in case ‘right’ is taken as a political direction.
🙂
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Reblogged this on maltbyblogger and commented:
The tide is turning – but is it going in the right direction ? (pun intended )
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Well Done Caven!
A really good result for democracy.
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As much as I dislike UKIP, I’m very pleased that the Wright dynasty in Rawmarsh has been ousted, proof that the Labour Party will not be forgiven for passing around important political positions amongst family.
Secondly, as well as this being a great victory for Caven Vines, I’m very proud that the Conservative Party secured a very respectable 3rd place when most had predicted we’d finish below TUSC and the BNP, and we spent very little in terms of resources so it’s an encouraging result for us too.
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Omar, just over 100 votes down from 700 or so in 2010 cannot be called encouraging surely?
However, everyone who opposes this complacent Labour Admin must take comfort…
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No, of course it’s not ideal but given the fact that turnout was 26% and as I say, everyone had written us off, we’ve done well and now we’ve got to build on that.
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Omar
The turnout was only 27% in 2012 – and yet the Cons managed to get 13% of the vote then. In 2013 with a turnout of 26% you managed less than 5%.
In 2010 and 2011 the figures, and trend, were consistent with the 2012 figures: 2010 – 15% (54% turnout); 2011 – 14% (33.5% turnout).
This year the tory vote fell off the cliff, it looks are though some two thirds of tory voters went across to Caven’s camp. Happy landings! 🙂
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A regular reader, jumping on the anti-Tory bandwagon must be bags of fun for many of you but the fact of the matter remains we have secured 3rd place despite people saying we’d be completely finished off. ‘Tory vote fell off the cliff’? Yeah, you carry on saying that, never know, one day you might actually believe it! We’re in a situation at the moment where the party has lost ground but we look forward to making that up in the future.
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Well done Caven now we wait to see what participation you will be allowed in a still Labour dominated council. Lots of squeeky bums after this defeat of the liblabcon mob.
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Excellent result for Caven and UKIP.
Mrs.Wright conducted a campaign of mostly ‘I’m the Labour candidate,vote for me’ Even more sickening was her husband canvassing on her behalf, there you have it; Labour employing the only £85,000 p/a party canvasser.No surprise he’s a part-time PCC.
The Ed Millerband party-and its RMBC acolytes- now has some serious work to do. It’s traditional (tribal?) support is collapsing not only in South Yorkshire but nationwide, similarly Cameron is staring defeat in the face.
This stunning result for UKIP is a wake up call to politicians who think they are in safe seats. Bad news boys and girls, you are all at risk.
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So Labour can be beaten even the heart of one of its rotten boroughs. Looking at the actual results tells us something. When voters want a change from the ruling party they seem to be able to pick the one most likely to win and vote accordingly which probably accounts for the collapse in support for all the other candidates rather than the anti-Labour vote being split. Perhaps it is time that all the opposition groups which wish to play a constructive part in local affairs looked very closely at which areas they should contest and which they should leave to others.
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Well done UKIP!
Get ready for the leftie backlash, similar to Farage got in Edinburgh.
Giving people a choice & accepting the results of democracy are not among the lefts strong points
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It’s laughable that people are talking about democracy with below 26% turnout, the declining voting numbers is the major worry here, its bound to let in extremists.
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This result is a bit of a worry for democracy in that compared to 2010 (which admittedly coincided with a GE) the number of folk who voted last time but didn’t bother to turn up this time is greater than the number of voters who did turn out yesterday (52% vs 48%).
If I was UKIP I wouldn’t be crowing too much because (puts on Anorak) the voters deserting their major rivals from 2010 were as follows (rounded to the nearest 50): Labour down 1,600, BNP down 650, Conservatives down 750, Greens down 300 – total 3,300!! UKIP only increased their vote from their 2010 turnout by 422 (from 721 to 1143). In other words, they attracted only one in eight disgruntled voters.
If we (1) discount Greens who probably wouldn’t vote UKIP in a month of Sundays, then (2) make an educated guess that most UKIppers who voted yesterday also voted UKIP in 2010 and then (3) assume that say half of the UKIP increase came from BNP folk switching, then our conclusion is that UKIP garnered barely 100 votes from each of the two main parties; their victory doesn’t look so great in those terms.
Worst still, if all UKIP increase came from BNP voters (which is not beyond the bounds of credibility) then UKIP didn’t make any inroads into Tory and Labour votes at all. What is worrying for democracy is that it is disillusionment that is keeping folk away from the ballot box across the spectrum (Green, LDs, Tory, Labour and even BNP). Only UKIP are keeping or getting votes – all power to their elbow for fighting their corner and offering something, at least.
The positive aspect is that Labour have had a wake up call – will they heed it? Labour, it’s time to come back to your roots, but it’s also time to clean up your act! If you won’t heed the warnings, the message is, if people really don’t want UKIP or BNP, then they seem to need a moderate, new, viable and Independent alternative to the three main parties….
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The Labour Party as recently as 1983 opposed Britain’s membership of the EU. The Labour metropolitan elite are now the cheerleaders for the EU and the cannon fodder in safe seats follows them blindly. Get back to your roots, Labour. I remember when Labour were a party of principle under Hugh Gaitskell. Labour need such a man now.
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As recently as 1983 – wow that’s only 30 years ago, even a day is a long time in politics!
..and what happened to Labour in the 1983 election? Wasn’t it the year that Labour had its worst performance since 1918?
” I remember when Labour were a party of principle under Hugh Gaitskell. Labour need such a man now.”
… and you’re not old enough to remember a guy called Nye Bevan? Now he was a man of principle, and vision.
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And where do you think Nye Bevan, whom I do not remember, other than as a historical figure, would have stood on the EU? I don’t remember Hugh Gaitskell either but from what I have read about him he was a very decent man.
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There’s pro and anti-europe on all sides of politics, Churchill was as right wing as UKIP and he advocated a united european federal state.
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A European state that did not include Britain.
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David, I’m sure you know far more about the subject than I do, but I thought this was the relevant speech: http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/astonish.html
… and it just doesn’t seem all that clear to me just how Churchill saw UK’s role in the “United States of Europe”, or the Council of Europe for that matter.
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When Churchill was speaking of world groupings he already saw Britain and the Commonwealth as one group within the United Nations. He saw the US as another group and he believed that Europe could be a third group.
Quote:
“There is no reason why a regional organisation of Europe should in any way conflict with the world organisation of the United Nations. On the contrary, I believe that the larger synthesis will only survive if it is founded upon coherent natural groupings.
There is already a natural grouping in the Western Hemisphere. We British have our own Commonwealth of Nations. These do not weaken, on the contrary they strengthen, the world organisation. They are in fact its main support.
“And why should there not be a European group which could give a sense of enlarged patriotism and common citizenship to the distracted peoples of this turbulent and mighty continent and why should it not take its rightful place with other great groupings in shaping the destinies of men?”
It is clear that he saw the European group as a continental grouping with France and Germany as the lynchpins.
Thank you for engaging with me on this most interesting of historical subjects.
David
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This was before the break up of the empire, when Britain’s trade was largely with the commonwealth.
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The Empire had gone long before 1983. Our trade is still worldwide. Furthermore, we do not need to be in the EU to trade with them. How do you think Korea and Japan manage. Even Mexico has a free trade agreement with the EU and they were not in the EU when I last checked.
The people who talk about trade and lost jobs are the same people who forecast disaster if we did not join the Euro. They were wrong then and they are wrong now.
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David,
but even the Commonwealth is very different than it was in the 1940’s, and Mother Russia’s role is far diminished.
You may find this interesting:
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Remember these words from Churchill, refuting the idea that Britain should have any part in this US of Europe,
““We have our own dream and our own task. We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked, but not comprised. We are interested and associated, but not absorbed. And should European statesmen address us in the words that were used of old: ‘wouldest thou be spoken for to the King, or the Captain of the Host?’, we should reply with the Shunammite woman “Nay Sir, for I dwell among my own people’”.
As you have said, times change. However, my firm conviction is that Britain has no place in the EU and that constitutionally, politically and economically we would be better off out.
David
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” If we (1) discount Greens who probably wouldn’t vote UKIP in a month of Sundays, ”
I can’t help thinking it would be a far far longer time span than that.
UKIPs climate change policy document from the last general election has disappeared from their re-jigged website, but this gives some of the flavour of it:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/apr/02/ukip-mep-climate-change-policy .
Anything that Lord Monckton of Brenchley (currently UKIP’s President in Scotland) is involved in just needs some flour, egg white and a while in the oven, to come out as fruit and nut cake.
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I think UKs position on Europe is a no-brainer – we stay in and fight to revert it to an economic community – in concert with many other people in other European countries who want the same. This will be a bloody uphill slog because there is an entrenched vision of Europe among a Brussels political elite that is driving an undemocratic agenda to create a Euro State. This pro EU elite is also well entrenched in UK politics at the moment (but for how long?). We may need to temporarily withdraw in the face of short-term intransigence to make our point, to make the EU experiment unworkable and to hasten reversion back to what we actually joined in 1975 (and voted for) while we wait for the European furniture to shift about. But, despite their grip on the current situation, history shows that elites cannot ignore the majority groundswell forever (eg fall of Iron Curtain, Arab Spring etc). With the economic drivers getting behind a dismantling of the Euro State beauracracy as well, the process may proceed quicker.
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Rev,
It’s not a “Brussels political elite that is driving an undemocratic agenda to create a Euro State.”, it’s an apolitical bureaucratic European Commission. Been there – got the brick shaped bruises.
In the French press there is a lot of current discussion on the problems with their elitist tertiary education system, and its inability to move their economy forward; it’s the product of that elitist system ( http://www.cge.asso.fr/ ) that populates the higher echelons of the Commission.
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Here we go cant get the ball so kick the player well done Astoished.com I wish i was as clever as you but having Dyslexia is some thing I have to live with and put up with all my life Including Insults from Biggots like you But never mind I will get by no doubt I have done so far Instead of trading insults why dont you stand up and have go at trying to change things.
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Congratulations Caven. It is great to see UKIP get their first seat in Rotherham borough. Hopefully UKIP will appear in Anston in 2015 and kick the Labour party candidate out. Am I right in saying that UKIP represent both the traditional Labour and Conservative supporter, rather than being a Tory party with a different name. It would be great for you to put people right on this point.
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A bloody nose for Labour.
Wrong candidate, out of touch policies and tonight while people in Rotherham use Food Banks our greedy Labour Cllrs have their snouts in the trough at the Mayors belly busting feast!
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…but I bet they’re thinking that they’re dining in the Last Chance Saloon.
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rev:
Good analysis so well done.
Your figures show the Labour vote down by 1600 and the Conservatives down by 750, yet ‘regular reader’ says ‘the Tory vote fell off the cliff’. Am I missing a quantum leap in logic here? How does 750 beat 1600??
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Maybe it’s asbo’s turn to be knocked off his perch next time?……. I hope so!!!
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I wonder if everyone is over-analysing the results. I believe the electors are actually more sophisticated than political pundits would credit. They know, perhaps subconsciously, that some parties like the tories and libdems were never going to win in Rawmarsh. People sense who could win and probably voted against their normal inclination for a party they might not even like very much in order to prevent one they like even less from winning. That is the beauty of a secret ballot – nobody has to justify their decision.
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Hi Colin, I’ll do my best to explain:
(I’m far better with numbers than I am with words – so bear with me – OK?)
The Rev looked at the raw actual voting figures; I looked at the changes when expressed as a percentage of the overall turnover at the various elections.
The objective was to remove, or at least substantially reduce, the effects of the differing turnouts over the years.
Let’s take a brief look at the BNP figures over the last 4 Rawmarsh elections:
2013 – 80 votes, 3.34%.| 2012 – 531 votes, 20.87%.| 2011 – 327 votes, 10.37%.|.2010 – 744 votes, 14.35%
So which was the better result for the BNP; 2012 when they got 531 votes on a total turnout of 2544 and came 2nd, or 2010 when the secured 744 votes on a turnout of 5185 and came 3rd ?
I’d say that 2012 was their better year – they got some 21% of the vote, …maybe you would disagree?
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Now going back to the Labour/Tory figures that you were questioning.
Again I was trying to get to some numbers that could be meaningfully compared with each other. (It’s what I spent a lot of my working life doing.)
This then is the Tory vote in Rawmarsh in each of the previous three elections:
2010 – 772 votes, 14.89% | 2011 – 446 votes, 14.14% | 2012 – 328 votes, 12.89%.
(So over those 3 years the Tory percentage of the vote had been slowly and steadily declining, and if that trend had continued into election I might have reasonably expected them to collect something close to 12% of the vote.)
In 2013 they collected 4.46%.
So compared with 2012 they lost 8.43% of their vote.
Now for the Labour vote:
2010 – 2656 votes, 51.22%.|.2011 – 1991 votes, 60.59%.|.2012 – 1685 votes, 66.23%.
(Over those years the Labour percentage vote had been on a rising trend, and I might have expected them to reach a minimum of say 70% in 2013.)
In 2013 they collected 43.35%.
So compared with 2012 they lost 22.89% of their vote.
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Labour’s loss of 22.89% is certainly much greater than the Tories’ 8.43% loss in raw terms, but in terms of the previous size of their vote things look more than a little bit different:
Between 2012 and 2013 Labour lost 34.55% of their vote – maintaining 65.45%.
In that same period the Tories lost 65.40% of their vote – maintaining 34.60%.
That the BNP vote dropped even more than the Tory one over that period is probably not much of a consolation to Omar, but he can console himself with the fact that the Tories have maintained at least 3rd place for 4 years in succession.
phew , I’m glad that’s finished. !
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Sorry its taken me so long to get started in my Councillor Duties.
My first Council meeting was 2pm Friday 17th when I was greeted by 2 Labour Councillors one shook my hand and the other used a more explicit greeting with F—–g in it twice then about 50 or so glaring eyes Ha Well Now’t alters then.
So I thought i would get the ball rolling with a invite to RT Hon Iain Duncan Smith MP to visit Rawmarsh
to meet the people and explain to them why he as introduced such a evil tax as this. As I have had requests for help.and I thought it would be a good idea for him to get north of Watford and see the real suffering he is cousing
below is a copy of my letter to him so lets see what is reply will be
You never know stranger things have happened recently in Rotherham.
UKIP Cllr Caven Vines Rotherham Borough Council
Rawmarsh Ward,
19th May 2013
For the attention of Rt Hon Iain Duncan Smith MP, Secretary of State, for Work and Pensions
Ref: – Spare room Tax (known as the Bedroom Tax)
Sir
As a Local ward councillor in a town of high unemployment I write to you with reference to this spare room bedroom tax tax you have imposed upon the most vulnerable and financially deprived people in the town. With most in a situation of being unemployed or disabled and living well below the poverty line. Through no fault of theirs People trapped in a house of more than one bedroom with no way of moving to a single bedroomed home. BECAUSE THEIR ISN’T ENOUGH FOR PEOPLE TO MOVE TO? So with the imposed Tax with no thought as to what total misery and devastation and humiliation it is causing to normally hard working peoples everyday lives, some now not able to eat properly and forced to go cap in hand to free food charities to survive.
This Totally discrimination tax you have without any thought of the consequences it is having on people’s lives we have had cases of people taking their own lives accredited to the misery you have caused by the introduction of this evil tax on our most vulnerable.
A Tax which is costing more to collect and administer than it could ever collect and is impossible to achieve anything without a mass building program of one bedroom affordable houses.
I now invite you to my ward in Rotherham to meet with the people affected with this unjust tax and to see first-hand and to explain in person to the people you and your government have put into this situation which they cannot and have no way of avoiding.
I do hope you are man enough as an elected Politian and Minister to accept my Invitation to come and face the people in the Northern Town of Rotherham and explain to them why you have imposed this unjust evil extra Burdon on some of our poorest population.
You are taxing the most vulnerable people in our society whilst endorsing some of your colleagues to have second homes at the tax payer’s expense.
This is your opportunity Rt Hon Mr Smith MP to get out into the reel world of a part of Britain North of Watford and just see for yourself just what damage you and your Government are imposing on the very people you are empowered and have a duty of care to protect These are not the people who put us in this mess but they are the people paying the price.
I now await your response to my Invitation. Which I also extend to The Prime Minister David Cameron and Deputy Prime minister Nick Clegg.
Yours faithfully
Cllr Caven Vines M.A.Mech Eng.
Rawmarsh Ward, Rotherham
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As a labour member got to admit its an excellent letter.
Despite our own feelings expressed in our party. How many labour cllrs have stopped making excuses in implementing this tax. Lets av some direct action not wot can we do drivel.
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This is a good letter but like most people we will have to wait until Labour get into power to reverse it. If you think welfare is bad now just wait for UKIP who make it very clear they will do more than slash budgets. This letter is a bit like “I am not racist I have a black friend” but In relation to those who are financially disadvantaged. The local authority have in place different measures to help people who find themselves needing help because of this tax but I do agree that it would be better if it did not exist. Come on Readers do you think if there is a pack with UKIP and the conservatives they will get rid of it?
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what makes you think Milliband will revers this tax When did he say this labour have not reversed any of the last conservative policies and if thats so why the silence from the Labour group.
And what budgets will UKIP be slashing please tell us.
And I can tell you now theirs no pact with anyone its only the conservatives who are edging their bets all UKP have done so far is split the Conservative in two now we have rumblings in the labour circle about our continuing membership of the EU. cos they know they havn’t a chance if not
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The first part I agree with you and that labour have a lot to answer for, for not reversing previous decisions. This is the reason why labour have no response to the conservative slash and burn brigade. Time for those who believe in real socialist values to reclaim the reigns from champaign socialists.
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